Change font size
It is currently Mon Sep 16, 2019 8:43 pm


Post a new topicPost a reply Page 1 of 4   [ 31 posts ]
Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: Thu Jun 18, 2015 7:54 am 

Joined: Thu Sep 04, 2014 9:47 am
Posts: 897
Location: Florida USA
...

I made a video to show the difference between iPi vs. Perception Neuron, both are RAW exported data to BVH for biped use, unedited in either iPi Studio or 3ds Max.

Both were smoothed as much as possible with the internal tools of each program only.(I did not rename finger bones for PN file, sorry, wasn't needed as was 17 neurons, no finger tracking anyway, hands and fingers are the least of the worries.

This is also the maximum amount of foot stabilization offered/applied with PN's Free editor, I don't know what the Pro editor will offer, but it comes with all the the Pro Windows, just all not activated for use.

YouTube Link: https://youtu.be/3L-PXzFiFfg ..... Perception Neuron (left) ... iPi Studio (right)

Perception Neuron ONLY offers its Free editor at this time for testing, the Pro editor has not even been released yet for use, even by purchasers, as I understand it.

If you want to download and test the free editor yourself, go here: https://neuronmocap.com/quickstart ... Scroll to Downloads near bottom and click on Axis Neuron.

It comes with several RAW motion files for testing and limited editing capabilities.

I am using iPi Studio Basic version and 5 PS Eyes, with 2 move controllers for wrist tracking for highly accurate results. (See videos index under Female Dance for demos).

As you can plainly see, although PN may be real-time recording and tracking, the amount of clean up needed will take much longer than the entire recording and processing time of iPi Studio, which to this point took me 1.5 hours in iPi at 1.15 s/f and .85 f/s with my machine config. with very little clean up or adjustments needed when applied to a character is was performed to be on.

Also, PN does not export a biped friendly BVH file, but I found a text editing program called Replace Genius that works easy and only have to rename the bones once and put them in a buffer that will batch them to rename the next file quickly, will work for any bone naming convention you use,

Replace Genius here: http://www.rlvision.com/genius/about.asp

Anyway, I was already aware that inertial real-time tracking was less accurate, doesn't matter what system you choose and it has more cons than pros to me for what I use motion capture for anyway. If I had a bigger studio to set up in, I could get a 20ft x 20ft capture volume and get more movement area, but that isn't needed for most actions.

To be in comparison to me, I would have to spend hours, if not days cleaning up the export from PN and still wouldn't be as accurate as iPi puts out in Raw form BVH... (Talk about Tokyo Drift!)... No Thanks, I will stick with iPi Studio and hope they keep improving it, they are doing well so far to me.

Comparative suit to iPi or 18 neurons kit, (no gloves for finger tracking), runs $1000 + shipping cost and only to US and Canada as of now. Add $500 for Pro editor (when released) and external power supply at $$ and dedicated WiFi router at $$ and if you ordered it now, you wouldn't even get it until late August at the earliest and to be honest, I think they are going to charge a subscription for the Pro editor once released also at $500 yr. (That's not exactly stated on website, but has been stated before!)

But... the disclaimer that pricing may change without notice is a good clue!!

Other limitations are listed on their Website and FAQ's and Forum... I would fully read and check out the product if anyone is thinking of purchase.

States firmware updates are already needed to implement certain features, (not operational yet), and will come in time, which is understandable as all products go through this.

I hope this visually shows the difference in the 2 programs ... You tell me which looks more natural in RAW state :)

Regards

...


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Jun 19, 2015 5:08 am 

Joined: Fri Aug 08, 2014 10:21 am
Posts: 7
I don't know what you've done but the results of PN are nothing as they should be, you messed up something.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bWsYPuZ1oV4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7tDxBbH9JMU

Perception has only pros compared to ipi sadly... even for using it, can't lie myself.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Jun 19, 2015 8:36 am 

Joined: Thu Sep 04, 2014 9:47 am
Posts: 897
Location: Florida USA
...

Have you used both systems? Meaning recorded through PN and exported your recordings?

What you are showing in those links is what Noitom put out as promotion videos, (not .raw exports), you have no idea what actual time was put in externally editing them, nor what 3d editor they used, (but they do refer Motion Builder was used in several statements, which many people don't use), what I show is imported into 3ds Max as a BVH, which they don't even offer natively, the BVH file has to be manually bone renamed to be used, this can be done for any skeleon structure as stated, but only FBX is offered for import into 3ds Max out of the Axis Neuron free editor.

What I showed was the actual .raw files run through their free editor, which is the only editor that is available now, even to its buyers, and that was the results I showed on a biped.

The recordings they offer as .raw test files are what they are, I did not change their .raw state, or mess them up, all that was done was the use of smoothing tools that were available in their editor, without making the animation look choppy, then exported as a BVH.

The iPi biped is the BVH exported from iPi as a Biped, it wasnt manually edited in any way, except for using iPi Studios Refining, Jitter Removal and Trajectory Filter, which is simply a low setting and a button click, of course it isn't the Raw export only after Tracking Forward the video, that would look much different, iPi's internal smoothing tools take care of things well for me.

I put the link to download PN's free recorder/editor, it's all one program for PN, run it yourself through any 3d editing program you wish, and post your own unedited video results from each program.

The results when you do will be far worse then what I get with iPi, I dont know the results you are getting from iPi, but if not relative to what I have shown in many videos using iPi, (some were not exported out of iPi Studio, and some were to a biped BVH when recorded), then it's your prerogative to use whichever program you want.

I have shown the difference of captures through 3ds Max only, I guess I will put a video out run through Motion Builder also, but I have run it there also, and the results of the exported files are the same, I can however use more smoothing filters than 3ds Max offers, but I wanted to demonstrate 3ds Max BVH import quality only.

Maybe when PN releases their Pro editor, it may help, but it will never change the capture motion quality, that will always be what it is recorded as, and will have to be manually edited a lot to make the animation more natural. (It is stated that will have to be done right in their FAQ's).

I didn't make the recordings, they were supplied right in the editor as .raw test files, so I couldn't have done anything wrong in the recording, that was on Noitom.

There is a difference in quality, whether it's believed or not, all I can say is good luck!

Regards

...


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Jun 19, 2015 11:22 am 

Joined: Thu Sep 04, 2014 9:47 am
Posts: 897
Location: Florida USA
...

This is from the Axis Neuron Free Recorder/Editor, with their settings from the supplied .raw file.

This video shows the actual in editor playback of the 30 neuron demo you stated above. (I didn't include the hands re-naming, I wasn't wasting my time, again least of the worries).

Absolutely stiff, no real naturalness in motion at all to me.

Link:https://youtu.be/29i0um7fQJQ ... View Full Screen in HD

...

This is the file exported to BVH, bones re-named for Biped.

The exported data transfer is what is needed, not what it looks like on the recorded playback, and the data transfer is sketchy.

Link: https://youtu.be/bHnYvHbBGiM ... View Full Screen in HD

...

A little different than their promo demo? I touched nothing, I just exported it, which is basically all you can do with their editor, there is no manual transitioning tools available, nor a jitter removal algorhythm. Only a smoothing factor setting for displacement and rotation and this was enabled.

If anyone wants to spend the time to clean this up to make it look like their demo on YouTube, more power to them, I personally wouldn't want to, to be usable in 3ds Max Biped.

To me there is no comparison, iPi is better with more features, the only drawback is processing time and if needed, the range of capture area.

But, to each there own, I am just showing what it appears to be to me.

...


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Jun 19, 2015 9:49 pm 

Joined: Thu Sep 04, 2014 9:47 am
Posts: 897
Location: Florida USA
...

Here is a video of the same BVH file exported from Axis Neuron editor to Motion Builder and shown on Mia.

I added 2 steps of full skeletal smoothing filter and 1 step of smooth translation filter only to the hips, no other adjustments were done.

Much better result, but still a bit rigid in the hips and spine, (some could be from how he was moving), there is no neck movement, limited shoulder movement and no toe bone on their skeleton for toe data, but they say they may add a toe bone to there skeleton in the future, but it won't have any data transfer, would have to be for manual editing only I guess.

I would say their output files are better used with Motion Builder, I exported the smoothed skeleton back out as a BVH file and re-opened on a 3ds Max Biped and got the same results as the previous video, so the BVH data compatability with 3ds Max Biped is not good.

Much less clean up required through Motion Builder, I do have a Maxscript for FBX conversions to Biped from Autodesk, I will try that later and see what happens.

Link: https://youtu.be/Q8nFXR8UbcM

...


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Jun 20, 2015 5:49 am 

Joined: Fri Aug 08, 2014 10:21 am
Posts: 7
Meh,

You're doing something wrong...

Here's from an actual user.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fLQzOD8xCVE

The motions are smooth, which is normal because they record in 60fps to 96 in your video they appear as less than 24, don't know what you're doing wrong, maybe you're not still skilled enough to export properly that kind of raw data, I don't know.

But the motions are pretty smooth and accurate.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Jun 20, 2015 8:18 am 

Joined: Thu Sep 04, 2014 9:47 am
Posts: 897
Location: Florida USA
...

HaHa! you cant be serious that a video of one arm can show the same results of an entire full body motion captured by the Noitom developer himself, smh ... that maybe great for one arm animated characters or one arm interactive game SDK's.

Here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pvaQeX_8g8c ... is a more demonstrative user video that you should have posted after processing by a professional animation film studio.

Its not rocket science to click the export file as BVH from the menu and open it in any 3d editor, I think even you could do it.

I can say I am more experienced than you, just from the statements you are trying to make, but if anyone is so impressed with the product that they can't record and show their own actual exports they have done from the actual editing programs supplied test files, even after being given the actual program editors download link, may want to do on their own test and exports from the provided .raw files first instead of posting others videos.

A product should be versitile to work in more editors than just Motion Builder with the same accuracy after export, as not all users will/can use Motion Builder to process their exports, do you even know how to use Motion Builder... My thought from your posts is no.

I personally use 3ds Max Biped as my MoCap editing program of choice, although I am experienced in several other 3D processing programs and motion capture systems.

Possibly as the product grows it will come with more reliable exporting options for more 3d editing programs, or plug-ins offered, but it doesn't now.

If you wish to drop the 2k for the full suit and use it, that's fine, then maybe you can at least speak from a place of first hand experience.

In that video you posted, the user states this, "Tracking is purely rotational, so position is off in a number of places and finger separation is not tracked, but overall it's quite good and reasonable. " ... Not sure why he stated finger separation isn't tracked, looks on video as it is, but that was his statement, not mine, and again, this is showing a recording, not an exported data file opened in an external 3D editor.

More user reviews will have to be put out showing the entire pipeline to final animation, then everyone will know the actual processing results users are experiencing with different external 3D editors exports and its real-time use within supported game engines.

Come on, make a stronger arguement for the product it seems you are infatuated with :)

My stance is..I am watching the product closely and when it gets to the point I feel it should be, I will consider purchasing it. It's not there yet.

Also, why hasn't Noitom themselves put out more, (FBX/BVH, other supported file types), exported animation videos, user tutorials for their editor, and the clean up process needed in more than one external 3D editor, they need to and should have by now, there are settings on their editor that have no explanation/tool tip for what they do and most are for use only on the Pro Version, which hasn't even been released yet to even people that have bought and received their packages. (Maybe this is "coming in the future" also from them).

Regards

...


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Jun 20, 2015 1:59 pm 

Joined: Fri Aug 08, 2014 10:21 am
Posts: 7
lol,

I am the infatuated one, sure... use what you like. I'll get one of these PN systems and enjoy myself. MoCap outside, inside everywhere I like in whatever environment I like.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LvkirCh ... e=youtu.be


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Jun 20, 2015 3:09 pm 

Joined: Thu Sep 04, 2014 9:47 am
Posts: 897
Location: Florida USA
...

Firmware update now includes Biped BVH as a native export.

New free editor update blocks all access to any change of parameters, everything is a fixed setting, all the can be done is recording and exporting now.

Video of the new scene released with update on a simple test character in 3ds Max trying to view the range he traveled and actions accuracy of the exported data.

Link: https://youtu.be/K-bRWkvRiqA ... They corrected the foot sliding much better.

They are getting it better, so evidently they saw the flaws themselves in their first release.

You will notice the accumulated drift from the beginning touching his computer to where he ends up touching his computer. (the jump to center at the end).

...


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Jun 21, 2015 12:15 pm 

Joined: Wed Apr 08, 2009 2:02 pm
Posts: 8
This one is good enough for my mocap needs :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nVABFPRRWN0


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post a new topicPost a reply Page 1 of 4   [ 31 posts ]
Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4  Next


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  


Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
610nm Style by Daniel St. Jules of Gamexe.net