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PostPosted: Tue Apr 25, 2017 11:38 am 

Joined: Mon Aug 03, 2009 1:34 pm
Posts: 2229
Location: Los Angeles
I noticed that support has been added for the Logitech Brio, a new webcamera capable of 4k resolution and, perhaps more importantly, 90 fps.

That's very exciting news! I was wondering if someone from iPi Soft can share their experience with this camera?

My only experience with Logitech cameras was in the early days of iPi Desktop Motion Capture 1.0, and the control panels were a bit fiddly to work with back then.

Obviously, the Brio is a more advanced device, and I imagine today's iPi Recorder has better controls for it. But how easy is Brio to set up and use compared to other current Mocap Studio device options like PS3 Eye and Kinect One? With the Brio's extra high-resolution, how much bigger is the performance space? How well does this camera perform under low-light? Is there good video consistency between Brio cameras? What are the hardware requirements for multiple Brio cameras? (For example, how many Brio cameras per USB controller?)

Thanks in advance for any info.

TBH, I'm not ready to give up my Kinect sensors just yet but this news has me thinking about it. :)

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 27, 2017 1:08 pm 
iPi Soft

Joined: Wed Apr 07, 2010 4:33 am
Posts: 363
Hello Greenlaw,

Greenlaw wrote:
I noticed that support has been added for the Logitech Brio, a new webcamera capable of 4k resolution and, perhaps more importantly, 90 fps.


You're right. Newest webcameras from Logitech have rather promising characteristics for our markerless motion capture technology:
  • high FPS for 720p resolution
  • good optics with reasonable field of view and relatively low distortion
  • auto-focus can be turned off
  • acceptable colors in low light conditions (better than Sony PS Eye has)

Based on these features, we added special support for the following hot models:
  • Logitech C922 (AKA C922x): USB 2.0, 1280x720 at 60fps, 78 degrees diagonal field-of-view
  • Logitech BRIO: USB 2.0/3.0, 1280x720 at 60fps and 90fps (90fps works only with USB 3.0), up to 90 degrees diagonal field-of-view

Greenlaw wrote:
That's very exciting news! I was wondering if someone from iPi Soft can share their experience with this camera?


Yes, sure. We performed small recording session with three Logitech C922 web cameras. And results are very promising. Due to higher resolution, you can increase capture area size by a factor of 1.5 if you have enough space. One ordinary (but modern) laptop can write from at least three Logitech C922.

We're going to manage recoding session with six Logitech C922 cameras and to share all results, including source video and processed projects.

But be aware that vertical field of view of Logitech C922 is slightly less than vertical field of view of Sony PS Eye, thus you have to stay slightly farther from camera to be visible in full length. This is because diagonal field of view of Logitech C922 is 78 degrees, while diagonal field of view of Sony PS Eye is 75 degrees, but Logitech C922 is 16:9, while Sony PS Eye is 4:3.


Greenlaw wrote:
Obviously, the Brio is a more advanced device, and I imagine today's iPi Recorder has better controls for it. But how easy is Brio to set up and use compared to other current Mocap Studio device options like PS3 Eye and Kinect One? With the Brio's extra high-resolution, how much bigger is the performance space? How well does this camera perform under low-light? Is there good video consistency between Brio cameras? What are the hardware requirements for multiple Brio cameras? (For example, how many Brio cameras per USB controller?)


We have only single Logitech BRIO in our hands at present time. And based on tests with single camera we can conclude the following:
  • To achieve 720p @ 90fps and 1080p @ 60fps, USB 3.0 controller is required. This means troubles with USB cords.
  • Also this camera doesn't work with some USB 3.0 controllers. This is really disappointing, because all other devices work well with these problematic controllers.
  • From bad to worse, UI elements to control and change field of view of this camera are available only in special proprietary software, and these UI elements are really confusing because there are three elements to control one and the same thing (field of view) with different names and no correlation with each other. Thus camera has only 3 possible fields of view values, but these UI controls can be in 3 * 3 * 2 = 18 different states!..
  • The last, but not the least, price is unreasonable high.

Based on this, we think that Logitech BRIO is not practical in spite of some outstanding features like 90fps and 90 degrees field of view. But Logitech C922 looks very promising and could be treated as future replacement of slightly outdated Sony PS Eye.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 27, 2017 1:40 pm 

Joined: Mon Aug 03, 2009 1:34 pm
Posts: 2229
Location: Los Angeles
This is indeed exciting news!

Thank you for your detailed explanation. I'm looking forward to seeing your test videos using the C922. :)

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Artist/Partner - Little Green Dog | Demo Reel (2017) | Demo Reel (2015) | Demo Reel (2013)

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 28, 2017 8:32 am 

Joined: Thu Sep 04, 2014 9:47 am
Posts: 736
Location: Florida USA
...

Quote:
Based on this, we think that Logitech BRIO is not practical in spite of some outstanding features like 90fps and 90 degrees field of view. But Logitech C922 looks very promising and could be treated as future replacement of slightly outdated Sony PS Eye.


This is my sole opinion on the matter:

I would agree with the above quote based on what I have researched also, but I have never seen any manufacturer specs on using multiple cams, 6 or more on one machine, but I guess when applicable this is handled in the individual device, or program SDK configurations and available bandwidth needs of each device and how powerful the machine is needed to run such a configuration, but for me personally, if the distributed recording feature is needed for just 6 RGB cameras, this would kill this choice anyway, even though I do have 2 usable recording machines, unless of course it showed outstanding results in the tracking process.

It seems anyone would need a more powerful machine, and even then would need additional add-on USB 3.0 cards, (depending on your level of motherboard), since most newer USB 3.0 ATX or above motherboards, especially ones using native USB 3.1 are combining the USB 3.0 and 2.0 into one controller, which means even if the mobo has 4 USB 3.0 rear ports, only 2 can be used at once with PS Eyes and I am sure this is the same for other USB 2.0 camera models as well, but if the mobo has available additional USB headers for extra USB ports there may be ability to use those together at a lower bandwidth overall, although I can only base this on my particular system components and some basic research into other components.

There may not even be a way to even run 6 Brio on one machine at all, even at lowest resolution 720p and even if powerful enough to do so, due to bandwidth, or SDK constraints, but at $200 each, it's not even a feasible choice to test it for most users.
Even the C922 at approx. $80 each (eBay) is a bit costly for not much more achievable tracking quality than a PS Eye, although those cameras would most likely work better in varying lighting conditions where PS Eyes struggle, if that would be a necessary need to a user.

Doesn't iPi Studio still only use 1200 x 720 max standard resolution in the view port anyway using a 1080p monitor?
Correct me if I am wrong here, but would this still mean with these other cameras it would only give better pixel clarity, not necessarily better resolution in iPi Studio?
Or, more range of usable view with iPi Recorder, or Studio tracking?

Also, with lower vertical FOV, it wouldn't lend any respect to smaller room size than the PS Eyes, or Kinects and this is a condition many users struggle with, the minimum room size I can use for 6 PS Eyes and to get a fairly usable ground capture volume of 10 x 12 ft squared, is 22 x 12 ft with a minimum of 2.5 m (8 ft) spacing from the edge of the capture volume at chest high, or slightly above chest high positioning, and using the side cameras at an 8 ft height at a 12 ft spread, I use these 2 side cameras primarily for better depth of field, hip and foot placement tracking.

(Speaking of only the 6 cam max Basic version set up):
Although it is possible to set all cameras at higher heights, this will also make the performer look a little smaller and can cause depleted quality in the tracking, especially in the shoulders when tracked by video is used and some issues with the head tracking, especially when not using a head mounted Move controller, as well as more occlusion of the arms by the body on bending over motions.

More detailed testing and tracking outcomes would need to be done by iPiSoft to validate the practical use of a C922 over the PS Eyes for now, but in time they may get this worked out and some samples released for comparisons, or if a need arises to upgrade to such cameras if the Sony drivers start to fail with newer operating systems, because I am sure Sony won't be updating the PS3 Eye Prime Sense drivers on their own.

...


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