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PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2018 2:21 pm 

Joined: Fri Jul 13, 2018 1:52 pm
Posts: 5
Hey guys,

I'm having some endless troubles with 6 PS eye cams... Problems are mostly Low FPS related and I'm trying to find out the reason of it.
2 or 3 cameras most of the time perform at 13-20 fps. The best result I've got was 60 fps on 4 out of 6 cams, but even that stat was a temporary one,
because it has changed after a couple of minutes (and I don't understand depending on what circumstances). I could make one of this low fps cams to work on 60fps
after moving up and down the camera with a tripod, just randomly... But it didn't work for the rest... I have attached the photo of the screen where u can see my space and camera positions... I know that the floor should be uniform and one colored for better results and that I need the ambient lighting (now I have the luminescent lighting from the single centered lamp), but I'm not sure that this is the reason of my low fps results, because there are videos where people capture the motion in offices with lots of objects in the background and stuff... I wanted to test whether the 40 fps setting will change the result or not, but actually I could not find this option anywhere in ipi Recorder.

My configuration is:
- 6 PS 3 Eyes
- I've got an old PC, but with really good Intel i7 Quadcore, 16GB memory...
- Windows 10, 64 bit
- 3 separate USB controllers, 2 of which are 2.0 and 1 is 3.0 with relevant extension cables for each...
- space is 5.5 meters by 6 meters

Please help guys, as I'm really close to depression...

Thanks


Attachments:
File comment: Here is the image of my situation.
37117237_10217106561714987_2450375951578562560_n.jpg
37117237_10217106561714987_2450375951578562560_n.jpg [ 215.78 KiB | Viewed 778 times ]
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2018 4:50 pm 

Joined: Thu Sep 04, 2014 9:47 am
Posts: 878
Location: Florida USA
...

Screen shot is very blurry, can't read the fps, but I take your word it isn't good.

Just an inquiry, when you say "relevant extension cables", are they active repeater cables?
Like this: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B002V ... softcom-20 ...

Or standard passive USB extensions? over 6 ft, passive cables won't work right.

(Quote from iPi information just in case you are doing this: If combining active and passive cables, make sure that connection order is correct (computer->active cable->passive cable->camera)).

I would just guess you are, but are you running your PC power on High Performance?

You don't state you have a dedicated graphics card, do you? Or is it Intel CPU graphics? I don't think the Recorder needs a high powered video card for recording, but I do think it requires a newer CPU Intel graphics chip, just asking, but you should have a fairly good graphics card with Direct-X 11 for tracking in Studio, once you get your camera issue solved.

Did you try each individual camera plugged in by itself to each USB port through the USB cables you have to run at 60 fps in all ports? Then leave that single one plugged in if so, and repeat with a next one plugging into each remaining USB port, and so on until see when fps gets affected? Just a suggestion.

I have not heard of that low of a frame rate with PS Eyes, nor experienced it, but not saying it isn't happening.

Your not giving a lot of information to help with, why I asked the above questions, but correct, that flooring is crazy and probably won't be good for tracking, especially the feet.

That one light should be ok for getting your cameras recording, being it is way out of direct sight of the cameras lenses, when you do get more lighting, remember to make attempts to not have the bulb shining right in the lenses, it will cause issues in tracking from washing the colors out, and even making body parts disappear in the light, like the arms/hands, using a higher set lights with some kind of a shield to deflect the light downward more helps, it will decrease the "Halo" affect around the lights.

Maybe the iPi support can shed some additional light on the issue, but would probably need a bit more information to help track it down.

Hopefully you can figure it out soon, Good Luck!

...


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 3:01 am 

Joined: Fri Jul 13, 2018 1:52 pm
Posts: 5
Hello,

Thanks for your response and time. I'll try to dive more deeply into the details, to avoid any info gaps.
I know it's a lot of information and questions, but if I'll get answers to all of them I hope I'll manage to
reach the goal... I've read the whole ipisoft wiki page and everything I could find on a community forum or somewhere else, but it's a bit confusing, because everyone has its own approach, which in most cases contradicts other concepts...
Actually, I'm working on getting good motion capture results for more than 3 months without any
notable success, started with Kinect for Windows v2 and used it for various softwares like Brekel Kinect Pro Body v2,
MotionBuilder, iClone Mocap Plugin and so on and so on... So u can guess how many stressful days and sleepless nights
I've went into... It was until one guy in from Indie Gaming Facebook Group recommended to Use ipisoft multiple PS eye cams
for that about 2 weeks ago, so I've bought 6 PS eye cams right away...
Anyway, besides this low fps problem, I've got some different issues as well. I'll try to describe the situation of my 6 PS eye camsin a detailed manner:

1. USB CABLES
I have 3 different usb controllers in my PC. 2 ports are USB 2.0, 1 is USB 3.0. For USB 2.0 I have both active and passive cables...
As for the USB 3.0 I don't know which type of cables do I have. There's no description from the manufacturer on the packaging...
Is there any way to find out?
P.S. Is it necessary to use 2 cables to connect the camera to PC? I mean, I have USB 2.0 active cables, which are about 9.5 meters long
and these should be enough in terms of length. Can I connect active cable to computer and then in camera, or I can only use computer->active cable->passive cable->camera structure? And also, can I connect the camera directly to the PC, without an extension cable, if the position and length makes it possible?


2. PC power is set on High Performance

3. Graphics Card
Yes I have dedicated graphics card. Although it's an old model GTX 560 ti. I have the brand new PC bought a couple of months ago, but I need it home, so unfortunately I had to take the old one along with the cameras for motion capture stuff...

4. FPS
I was able to run cameras smoothly without any fps drop when setting it to 50 fps... Maybe this "Active / Passive" cable thing is the reason of the low fps. I'll try to differentiate which cable is active and which is passive in case of USB 3.0 (the one that is unknown for me at this moment).
But even if it's won't solve the problem, isn't it OK to run it on 640 x 480 at 50 fps?

5. LIGHTING
I'm trying to find another room to rent it for motion capture... Besides the fact that the ground is too colorful and messy, the space in that room is not enough for me without any doubt... I have only 3 short steps forward and that's it... But to have into consideration in the next room I'll rent can u tell me a couple of words about lighting?
- In this current room I have very intense lighting, from a single light source mounted at the center of the room. Which means that the light goes directly on the actor (which as I've read is not recommended). Can u tell me what is the best way of setting the lighting in a room, how many sources, where exactly to position them, does the height of it matter? What type of the bulb should I use (Incandescent light bulb, maybe LED, warm lighting or cold etc.)?
P.S. To avoid the bulb shining right in the lenses, do I have to set the light behind or above the cameras? Will it work?

6. Camera Set UP
I've attached the camera set up plan image to the post (Camera_Set_up.jpg), to show u how did I position my cameras in the room I use currently... Is this structure ok? I'll use your advice in the next room I'll find... I have 6 tripods, 4 of which are 50'' and 2 are 72'' high. Is it necessary to make actor fully visible in all 6 cameras all the time? Because to reach that I had to extend the height of 3 cameras by putting these on some small chairs... Some people say do not recommend making all cameras too high, because although it makes the actor visibility better, the capture quality can be lowered... I'll try to find a room which is large enough to be able to capture the actor without extending the tripod height... But anyway...


7. Calibration
I've made the Calibration test. 2 images are attached ("calibration_result.jpg" and "calibration_preview.jpg). I've got 'perfect' quality result for all 6 cams. Marked 6 ground points. Though, u can see in the image "calibration_result.jpg" that some of the camera heights are really incorrect (camera #1 & camera #5 with 0.17m and 0.02 heights...). I couldn't change it manually, because when I try to change one of them either by scaling or by typing the desired number in the field, all of the camera heights change proportionally and the result stays messed up anyway... What could be the reason of the incorrect heights captured by the ipi recorder? Is it possible to avoid that initially, or at least correct it manually in ipi studio?
P.S. I also wonder whether the order of the cameras is important or not? I mean which camera will be camera #1, camera #2 and stuff... I know it can be reordered in ipi recorder by dragging the screens... Please let me know if it's so and how...

8. Motion Capture Test
I've made my first motion capture test after the calibration. The ground was incorrectly captured... The hands where captured more or less normally, but legs got screwed up right after I pressed refit the actor pose and was just static, while hands where moving... I know that my ground floor texture is terrible and I didn't have correct clothes on me, neither a tight pants and black shoes, instead I was in shorts and white running shoes... But is that the reason of it or there's something else that affects the bottom body to get screwed up?

9. I want to buy PS move motion controllers, but I need to know whether the PS 4 move motion controllers are supported or not, because PS 3 controllers are in bad condition on both Amazon and Ebay and according to the reviews they are not reliable... I asked this question to ipisoft support and they suggested to ask here on community forum... If it's supported I would like to buy the new one like these
https://www.amazon.com/PlayStation-Move ... controller

I will really really appreciate if you could help with all these, as it would end my struggles against the motion capture as a phenomena which lasted more than 3 months already...

Many Thanks in advance!


Attachments:
Calibration_Preview.jpg
Calibration_Preview.jpg [ 77.32 KiB | Viewed 765 times ]
calibration_result.jpg
calibration_result.jpg [ 174.7 KiB | Viewed 765 times ]
Camera_Set_ Plan.png
Camera_Set_ Plan.png [ 86.96 KiB | Viewed 765 times ]
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 10:09 am 

Joined: Thu Sep 04, 2014 9:47 am
Posts: 878
Location: Florida USA
...

Thanks for a much better insight to your issue.

Replies to issues stated in order:

1) Yes, you CAN use passive and active cables together separately depending on length cam is from Machine, passive only works best directly from machine to cam with a max length of 6 ft, (iPi states 3M Max), you CAN use active cable directly from machine to camera and a single cable 10M (30 ft) should be fine, it's what I use too.
Passive and active cables ONLY when used together for a single camera must follow the computer->active cable->passive cable->camera structure.
Cameras CAN be plugged directly into the machine also, and probably best to test each that way first, to eliminate the cables being an issue, if cams work directly plugged, should work through cables as stated above.

2) I figured your PC Power was High Performance, just asked to confirm.

3) For graphics card in machine using, a 560 Ti is a Direct X 11 card, so should be ok for Recording, but tracking will not be at a very good speed for PS Eyes recordings, but maybe you plan on using better home machine for tracking.

4) Active cable always have a larger Female plastic end on them and some have a small plastic cylinder around the cable on the Male end, but not all have this, it is used as a signal enhancer, so they say. I have only one with this cylinder and 5 without it, and no difference in signal quality from the PS Eyes.
Yes, it is fine to work with 640x480 @ 50 fps recording, many do that run on 50 Hz electric wall power, which I believe you may be running on, especially if located in Europe.

5) Lighting is a pretty personal choice, for now to get all your cams recording at a good frame rate, that light you have is fine, but later, you really don't need to go expensive lighting solutions, better to have more smaller wattage lights around the performer, any lighting on a subject will cause some self shadowing, that is why I choose to wear as much black clothing as possible, to eliminate these shadows as much as possible.
I also have 2 - 4 ft. LED lights, very bright cold light at front and rear of the capture area, about 8 ft off floor, but I had to make a shield that covers the bulbs and directs light downward more, or it causes color washout, (a light white film on the recordings in the cams they affect), that's not a good thing to occur for any lighting solution to cause.
Basically you want enough ambient lighting to illuminate the actor colors, but not enough to cause harsh self, or floor shadows, or hazing of the camera lenses and I suggest cold lighting, as it is a bit whiter light, so can use less wattage bulbs, and bulbs can be new style screw in LED type also.

6) Camera positioning seems to be mostly a personal choice, you can probably get 5 different answers, from 5 different users, depending on their rooms, but I will explain my set up, room is 22 ft (7 m) length x 12 ft (4 m) wide, all cameras are fixed to walls, so never get moved, but tripods are fine also.
I run 6 cams also, 3 - front cams (1- centered @ 1.50 m, other 2-approx. 1 ft forward of the center one @ 7 ft. (2.15 m?), 2 - sideish cams off centered by about 5 ft. to the rear, facing more down on area @ 8 ft. (2.42 m), 1 - rear cam at 7 ft. (2.15 m), had to place this way due to my room width.
You need to maintain at least one cam at 1.00-1.50 m, ( I use 1.50 m), in order for calibration to work accurately once in tracking process, best to be the front cam for this.
Some also use real low cams facing upward, but unless room is completely free of obstacles, this is a hard placement to achieve and also hard to keep lighting out of the lenses.

Make sure cam FOV of lens on all PS Eyes is turned to blue dot before recording anything, alert in top right corner to warn you also :)

7) Cams should run in order of the circle from #1 to #6, so drag the order in the view ports to match that, I don't think this matters per say, but easier to keep things in order in your head when you look at the monitor.
Calibration process is the most critical part of the tracking process, so get that very good, seems you have a lot of misdetects shown, that number should really never have a whole number in front and optimally be very low, like .25% or less, I usually consistently get .15-.09%, BUT iPi says up to 10% should be fine, I have just never got that many and all cams misdetects should be a very similar number, mine are always all the same, if 1 cam is 13%, all the rest will show that, but may not be a very big issue as long as all cams are closer in % number for misdetects.
Your reprojection error amount is fine, this should always be below 1.00 on all cams, lower the better, so .45 is very good.
I also use a different light marker trajectory than iPi shows theirs, I dont use the high trajectory cage method, I just run my light 2-3 ft off the floor around the circular perimeter of my capture volume, once more around touching the floor on front, r-side, rear, l-side, then once more around 2-3 ft. off floor, then touch the center point to finish and my calibrations are always very good.
Yes, when you change the value of the first cam, it will adjust the rest to match, this is proper, no need to play with the manual adjustment tools ever!
I use my front 1.50 m cam as my main #1 cam, so set all rest correctly to that, and with new v4 calibration, all cams are exactly perfect to the floor in Studio now for tracking.
(Note: Attaching the flashlight, Move controller, or whatever type light you use, (best to attach a ping pong ball over a flashlight bulb to get better full 360 view for all cams, all the time while moving it around), to the end of a sturdy 3-4 ft. dowel, or pvc pipe works well, and stay positioned in one area of the floor will most likely help your misdetects, position your body where not in a view of cam first and reach to touch the floor points and cover perimeter of capture volume.

8) For capturing, since you are using 2D video, clothing colors are very important, as well as a tighter fit of clothing, iPi suggest a different color for each part, or set of body parts, feet one color, hands another color and so on, but I don't use that method either, so maybe not my place to deviate from their suggestion.
You must have detected the Actor colors before refit, but since didn't have the right clothing at all, that process would never work properly anyway, until you do.
The floor is a major issue, Yes, if have to use that room for a while yet, get a piece of solid color (tan) linoleum, or a lighter colored throw rug large enough to cover the capture volume, something lighter, even a heavy white canvas painter's tarp will work, just affix it tightly stretched on the floor, so feet don't pull it and bunch it.

9) New style PS4 Move controllers will not work (yet), I believe iPi is looking into the issue, but they don't have a magnetometer, so even if iPi does get them working, there will be drift issues I guess.
PS3 controllers up to a certain time of manufacture have magnetometers, I explain it more here, and post several eBay postings to show the numbers needed:
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=9988
These in my opinion are a must have for the most optimal tracking results achievable, 3 per performer is best, 2 hands and head and how you attach them is personal choice, but I broke mine all down to the basic circuit boards and batteries only, to make hold free gloves and head wrap and still work correctly, but many may not want to go that route and just attach the whole controller in some means that will work too.
As far as the reliability of the PS3 Moves, I guess that depends on the seller and the luck, as all are used now, so do due diligence to try to protect from bad sellers and get the information off the rear tags before buying, but all 8 I have work, hold a charge, and calibrate correctly every time... (knock on wood) :)

Hope this helps a bit more, but iPi may want to add to this reply, or suggest more, but I am confident in my statements, I get the program to record with 3 Moves, 6-cams, great calibration, and great tracking, so all I can do is state my situation, over time you will learn how to make it work very easy, just don't over think things past the basics, it's a very basic system to get working great, once you figure out those basics and stick to them.

Best Regards!

...


Last edited by Snapz on Mon Jul 16, 2018 10:46 am, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 10:26 am 
iPi Soft

Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2012 6:12 am
Posts: 2042
Location: Moscow, Russia
Generally, you should avoid excess USB cables whenever possible. Directly connecting cameras to PC is the best way though not always possible. To place a camera at longer distance use active USB extension cables. Avoid passive USB cables at all costs, but if you use them then max 1x3m per camera. Active cable differ from passive in that they have a box somewhere on the cable - usually at female end.
PS Eye camera is USB 2.0 device so use USB 2.0 cables even when connecting to USB 3.0 port. USB 3.0 cables have tighter limits on allowed length than USB 2.0.

Graphic card is not used extensively for recording. You can record successfully with integrated graphics.

Whether 50 fps is OK depends on motions you're going to capture, but usually it is. For regular motions even 30 fps is OK. Higher fps provides better accuracy of tracking for fast motions like running, fighting etc.

Your lighting does not look too bad actually, although the quality of attached photos does not allow to evaluate it fully. If video does not look grainy then should be more or less OK.

Please check whether all cameras are set to wide FOV (camera lens rotated to the blue dot). If not this might be the source of improper calibration. You can share your calibration video via file sharing service so I could look further.

There's not much purpose in doing mocap test until you get digestable calibration results. However, I can make a few points here as well. Yes, you need to wear long pants while acting because Mocap Studio's actor model does not support shorts. Also, do not forget to adjust both actor dimensions and appearance to match actual actor. And align actor model with all camera images before hitting Refit Pose for the first time. Legs might be not tracking because the ground plane is incorrect and ground collisions were turned on for tracking.

New PS Move controllers with model number starting as 'CECH-ZCM2' are not supported yet, unfortunately. Find more details in these topics:
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=9899
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=9988


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 12:58 pm 

Joined: Thu Sep 04, 2014 9:47 am
Posts: 878
Location: Florida USA
...

Question for Maslov?

Is there a minimum version number for Intel, or AMD integrated graphics chips, or will all newer and reasonably older versions of these chips work just as well?

I am understanding they need to support Direct X 11, or is that incorrect for integrated graphics? Although I don't think a user would have a computer in 2018 for use with iPi that wasn't at least Direct X 11 compatible.

Just asking for reference, since I don't think that is mentioned anywhere, or addressed in a thread on versions, although I haven't really looked, so would be good to know for some users with much older machines.

Thanks

...


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 1:58 pm 
iPi Soft

Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2012 6:12 am
Posts: 2042
Location: Moscow, Russia
@Snapz

Yes, GPU usage in our software is based on DirectX 11. So this is the requirement for graphics to be used with Mocap Studio, whether discrete or integrated. However, let me remind that performance of integrated graphics (especially older ones) is very poor for tracking.

Recorder can also employ GPU for rendering, but this is not a requirement. It just falls back to CPU rendering if does not detect a compatible GPU. And GPU performance is not critical for rendering - any low end item will do the job fine.

Modern GPUs are usually equipped with DirectX 12 support.

We don't know exact lowest integrated models which are compatible with Mocap Studio: have never tested those. According to this document
https://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en ... ivers.html
Intel introduced DirectX 11 in 3d generation of Core processors which had either HD 4000 or HD 2500 graphics. I did not find similar doc for older AMD graphics though. I assume that anything that came out 5 years ago or later is DX 11 compatible.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 2:24 pm 

Joined: Thu Sep 04, 2014 9:47 am
Posts: 878
Location: Florida USA
...

Thanks for the information, some people even use 2010 era machines now, so Direct X 11 wasn't even recognized then, or very new, so good reference for at least machine requires use of Direct X 11 now for integrated graphics CPUs.

...


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2018 12:04 am 

Joined: Fri Jul 13, 2018 1:52 pm
Posts: 5
@snapz @vmaslov Thanks guys you are really super helpful!!!

I'll try to stick to the instructions provided and will let u know how it works! I hope there won't be any further problems.
I'm trying to get the space which will be at least 8 meters by 8 meters and will do the tests there...

Many thanks in advance!!!


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2018 11:09 am 

Joined: Thu Sep 04, 2014 9:47 am
Posts: 878
Location: Florida USA
...

When aiming your cameras, there is a grid tool that is very helpful, if you have a clearly marked center point of capture volume, or you can place an object in the center, like a soda can, or something, it will help in running the grid lines straighter through the area and the cross-hairs will most likely end up being right at performers hip level.

You should try to keep the performer visible in all cameras, but as long as 3-4 cams maintain full visibility, even if in a couple the hands may go out of frame on full extension, it will still maintain tracking very well, I used to have my 2 side cams centered to view only the upper back/chest, hips and feet when standing centered and it worked fine, I just moved those toward the rear about 5 ft. now to get more floor coverage.

I hope the explanations were understandable in prior posts, it seems like a lot to comprehend, but it really isn't once you go through the set up and get it all functioning properly, then maintain that same routine anytime you record, even if you can't leave your cameras set up, but it helps if you can.

Just remember, after you do a calibration, no camera can be moved, or even bumped, or you will need to re-calibrate them all and best to perform a before and after full session calibration recording, (meaning when you are done recording for that day), just as a back up against inadvertent camera movement.

Taping the camera cords to the tripod may help, some used PS Eyes aren't really tight on the base and just the weight of the cords hanging can make them drift up just enough to screw up calibration.

Hope it starts to work out better for you and would like to see some test trackings you accomplish when able.

Best Regards

...


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