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 Post subject: Re: Dual xbox one kinect
PostPosted: Fri Nov 13, 2015 9:21 am 

Joined: Mon Aug 03, 2009 1:34 pm
Posts: 2423
Location: Los Angeles
Just so there's no confusion, I should point out that this is one of the differences between Kinect and PS3 Eye. With PS3 Eye devices, staggering the heights is recommended. This is mainly because Kinect is a 3D recording device and PS3 Eye is a 2D recording device, and staggering the heights of 2D devices helps them perceive depth better--which is also why you need more PS3 Eye cameras for similar coverage. (I'm not talking about the max size of the space, just comparable coverage.)

Between Kinect v1 and v2, yes, the v2 is supposed to have wider coverage so you may not have to tilt the device as much for certain over-reaching actions as described for v1 above--v2 should cover those area more readily at a level angle.

As for calibration, don't over think it. The light just needs to be visible to all devices and the movements should cover much of the shared visible. Spiraling the light helps cover the outer and inner areas more effectively--the direction or point of origin really isn't important. Also, with Kinect, you don't need to touch the ground because it finds the ground plane using the depth sensor. I usually record about 15 to 20 seconds of data for a single calibration and typically get good tracking results with as little as 400 - 500 frames of data.

Hope this helps.

G.

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 Post subject: Re: Dual xbox one kinect
PostPosted: Fri Nov 13, 2015 9:35 am 

Joined: Tue Nov 10, 2015 3:30 pm
Posts: 34
Okay, yeah that definitely helps.

I may be overthinking this because I'm still waiting for my second Kinect (it should arrive early next week). So, as usual, I'm just trying to scope things out and feeling anxious until I can actually get it here.

The good surprise, for me, was the Kinects have a tripod screw hole at the bottom -- really makes it easy to set them up as I have two or three tripods I'm not using right now. So I think experimenting to find the exact positioning will be a lot easier.


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 Post subject: Re: Dual xbox one kinect
PostPosted: Fri Nov 13, 2015 10:04 am 

Joined: Thu Sep 04, 2014 9:47 am
Posts: 897
Location: Florida USA
...

In my experience with Kv2's the floor height is now auto-detected by the cameras, so unlike Kv1 where you could set them at different heights for dual config, as long as were pointing at each other in a 180 set up and at the same distance from a center floor marker in the volume, but this can not be done with Kv2, it causes the actor to rotate to the view of each camera, you can only set them at basically same height (3-4 ft is correct) and same distance away from center point in volume and yes they will be offset due to the lens position on Kv2, as far as set appearance of camera, just line up lens to center point for each, but can vary a few degrees in rotation of head on and be ok.

I could not use the 90 degree set up in my studio, but I think either config. would work about the same, my set up was 7m apart, which is about the max to keep tracking ability in both cams in a 4m x 4m volume.

Vertical angle shouldn't exceed 5-10 degrees, as long as both rotated to about the same view, as you will cover the whole room easily at this angle with Kv2 FOV, it just depends on if you want to view less of the ceiling, the cameras will auto-detect the floor anyway and auto set it.

It was experienced in my use that the use of only depth cloud recording, it had an offset issue to the actor-to-performer scale, the use of video and depth recording this was not an issue as much, but don't change the actual size much of the actor to performer height using depth only recording in the Studio software, this will cause shoulder dropping issues and foot tracking issues. Don't adjust floor from auto set position if using depth recording only, this will only cause you issues! just let it line up and track as it is, using actual performer height.

It is easier to just calibrate the old way of a 3 ft x 3 ft cardboard or similar board for calibration, at least for dual camera, but I did experience an issue where on first calibrate tracking may not put cameras where they are in world, opposed, and show a FAILED report, you may need to just click the calibrate button again if this occurs, several times possibly, to get the cameras to flip to the proper 180 degree set up. (This was my experience). It should show PERFECT or GOOD after that, and will track properly and save you from constantly re-doing your calibration video. (you should stand as close to centered in volume as possible when calibrating this way and only rotate the board from the wrists to a 45 degree angle each way for several hundred frames minimum trying to maintain as level as possible for best calibration outcome). The program should re-adjust as needed after that. (Note: Even if shows a FAILED calibration, as long as the cameras appear correctly positioned in scene, it most likely will track fine off the recording). This may happen and may not, just good to be aware of it, or you can re-do your calibration video again.

You will of course have to test and find out on your own, these are just some things I experienced with the Kv2 dual 180 degree set up, and yes, actually 175 degree works better, but more than that and you will see the 2 actor clouds not line up as well and cause issues with tracking trying to jump between the differences of the point clouds.

I was able to get a larger capture volume than with my PS Eye set up of 6 cameras, (went from 3m x 3m with PS Eyes to 4m x 4m with dual Kv2), but the accuracy is less quality for what I want and runs at a max of 30 fps to the Eyes 60 fps. I have the minimum area for use of 6 PS Eyes though, Kv2 works with less area better.

Please post if you are experiencing the same issues I listed, (or not), there is very little user feedback for the Kv2 (dual or more set ups) and your experiences could help other potential users.

Every user has different experiences, so it is nice to hear and see videos of your work if possible, showing the outcomes you get right inside iPi Studio Previz with a target character import, as well as after export on the same target character in another 3D editing program.

I am not a fan of the Kinect v1 or v2, but the Kv2 is much more accurate with a wider FOV than the Kv1. ( I have shown some recorded tests with the Kinects, both v1-v2 in the Videos Index, if you wish to view them).

Your second machine must also be able to handle a Kinect v2, hopefully this won't be an issue for you.

Hope this helps and good luck!

...


Last edited by Snapz on Fri Nov 13, 2015 11:02 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Dual xbox one kinect
PostPosted: Fri Nov 13, 2015 11:00 am 

Joined: Tue Nov 10, 2015 3:30 pm
Posts: 34
Thanks for the detailed reply.

I've already tested both my laptop and desktop and they will record properly with the Kinect V2 so I'm okay there.

I'll definitely post my experience, along with videos and other information. There is lots of interest about this on the iClone forum so I'll have a lengthy discussion of what works for me (and what doesn't). Just using the single camera V2 I got excellent results from the iPi software, so I can't imagine the dual setup giving any worse (the only issues I had were in turning around and it's what I hope a dual sensor setup will help with).

Won't know for sure until next week, but any other thoughts from anyone will still be appreciated.


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 Post subject: Re: Dual xbox one kinect
PostPosted: Fri Nov 13, 2015 11:24 am 

Joined: Mon Aug 03, 2009 1:34 pm
Posts: 2423
Location: Los Angeles
Turn around should be easy with dual v2. FWIW, with v1 I could record turnarounds with a few tweaks with the 90 degree setup; with <180 setup, a turnaround was not a problem.

It just occurred to me a few days ago that my Wacom Cintiq Companion 2 tablet may be compatible with v2 since it has Core i7, USB 3.0, and I believe the native graphics chip supports DirectX 11. That should be easy enough to test this weekend.

G.

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 Post subject: Re: Dual xbox one kinect
PostPosted: Fri Nov 13, 2015 11:52 am 

Joined: Thu Sep 04, 2014 9:47 am
Posts: 897
Location: Florida USA
...

That would be good to know if it does handle it, I hope it can for you.

Since the recording process doesn't take as much power, a mini comp or higher end tablet with USB 3.0 should be compatible, I guess, as long as the write speed of its hard drive can keep up, or maybe writing to an SD card or Flash Drive, but I haven't tried either.

Yes, 360 body rotations are achievable with 1 camera of both Kv1 or Kv2, you just can't "linger" in the occluded zone long, and will need to manually correct any brief errors occurring, 360 rotations are completely achievable easily with 2 Kinects.

iClone 6 just sent their patch for the Kinect v2 last week, but yes it's only a one camera system and I haven't tried it yet, their Kv1 system was useless to me.

...


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 Post subject: Re: Dual xbox one kinect
PostPosted: Fri Nov 13, 2015 12:12 pm 

Joined: Mon Aug 03, 2009 1:34 pm
Posts: 2423
Location: Los Angeles
Good point and I think it should work. The Wacom has a very fast SSD. Will keep you posted in the other Kinect v2 thread.

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 Post subject: Re: Dual xbox one kinect
PostPosted: Fri Nov 13, 2015 12:57 pm 

Joined: Thu Sep 04, 2014 9:47 am
Posts: 897
Location: Florida USA
...

It has the ability to download the iPi Recorder and its specs look very good.

A regular tablet wouldn't be able to download anything but Apps, so that would be out for iPi Recorder, and after thought, writing to a SD or Flash drive wouldn't work for iPi Recorder anyway, it would only be able to store the information there, since iPi doesn't give a choice of drives to load it on, makes you load it on your main Drive (C: for most people).

Thanks for any updates you post.

...


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 Post subject: Re: Dual xbox one kinect
PostPosted: Fri Nov 13, 2015 1:46 pm 

Joined: Mon Aug 03, 2009 1:34 pm
Posts: 2423
Location: Los Angeles
Yes, I keep forgetting that, except for the graphics chip (Intel Iris 6100), this tablet is actually more powerful than my workstation at home. I actually do most of my personal work on it these days. If I can get iPi Recorder and a Kinect v2 to work with it, I'll feel much better about what the tablet had cost. :)

I just checked the Iris 6100 specs and it supports DX12, so I should have Kinect v2 support on this device covered.

Pretty excited now. I may try it out as early as this evening.

G.

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 Post subject: Re: Dual xbox one kinect
PostPosted: Fri Nov 13, 2015 2:42 pm 

Joined: Tue Nov 10, 2015 3:30 pm
Posts: 34
Snapz wrote:
...iClone 6 just sent their patch for the Kinect v2 last week, but yes it's only a one camera system and I haven't tried it yet, their Kv1 system was useless to me.
...


I bought their plugin for V2 and it's pretty awful -- very jittery even at the smoothest setting. It can't do turnarounds but even worse it has issues with the arms even crossing in front of the body, or each other (they go very wonky). About the only good thing about it is it has the ability to only record upper body motion (in case you want do just do some sit down very close to the sensor work, from right at your desktop).

I also tried Brekel's V2 plugin before I spent the (comparative) big bucks for iPi's offering. Again, only a single Kinect but actually really very good with upper body motion, easily on par with iPi's single sensor offering. However, the feet keep sliding around no matter what I tried so it was quickly discarded.

I really didn't *want* to like iPi's software -- the subscription model is one I kind of loathe. In this case, though, the trial software was just TOO good (just for the one Kinect, as I said, but if I got great results from it I can't imagine I'm going to be unhappy when my second sensor arrives). I'm also not happy it's not real time -- I don't need actual real time, but post processing is a bit of a PITA. But it's hard to argue with how good the results are. I would have for sure thought they were from a rig.

Which is where all this started -- I was looking at getting the Perception Neuron rig and since I had a Kinect V2 already (from my XB1) I thought I'd at least check this stuff out. While there are still advantages in a standalone rig, and while I do think in a year or two we'll see really cheap (under $500) rigs available, right now this is still the most cost effective and best system I've seen.


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