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4 cam, kinect, one man recording?
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Author:  fablefox [ Sun Feb 13, 2011 2:32 am ]
Post subject:  4 cam, kinect, one man recording?
I have several question:

1) since I haven't put down any money on hardware yet, which is the best decision if I plan to do motion capture within two year time frame, starting within like 3 or 4 month from now. Go out and buy 4 eye cam or single kinect cam? looking at amazon price. I can buy 6 eye cam for less than single kinect.

2) is kinect floor stand (http://www.amazon.com/Xbox-360-Kinect-F ... _sim_vg_10) a good combination, if I plan to go kinect route?

3) which require less space? i plan to record mostly personal movement, for example smoking, combing hair, playing guitar, weight lifting. even for fighting, mostly simple movement, as i will later edit in messiah anyway. in other word, if i can record it in my bedroom, good.

4) will kinect good for limited recording? for example i want to capture myself eating at a table, so what important is my hand, body and head movement. is ipi soft / kinect good for this? or the table will become a problem, therefore i need to build a skeletal form (anyone who seen the making of baewolf would know what i'm talking about).

5) last but not least, can a one man operate this? for example, i click record (then the pc would record the empty scene, i walk in, do my movement, then walk out and click stop?

i read the other post regarding kinect will out within a week or so, so i'm not buying any hardware until i know which fit my situation best.

oh, i have 2 core 2.9 intel, is that good enough for a single kinect?
Author:  Greenlaw [ Sun Feb 13, 2011 4:07 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 4 cam, kinect, one man recording?
Hi Fablefox,

You can find detailed answers in recent posts to the forums so I'll keep the answers short here. Also, bear in mind that the Kinect version is not even out yet so nobody can answer questions about it with any accuracy. Here are my best guesses though.

fablefox wrote:
...Go out and buy 4 eye cam or single Kinect cam? looking at amazon price. I can buy 6 eye cam for less than single kinect.

It depends on the level of quality you want. Six PS3 cameras will capture with higher precision and a broader range of motions. The PS3 system is also capable of capturing in a large space. (According to iPi specs, Kinect can capture in 6 x 6 ft space but PS3 can capture in 60 x 60 ft. Of course, it may be hard to find a usable performance space that big. For comparison, I shoot in an area the size of a two-car garage but my usable performance space is about 7 x 7 ft, which is just big enough to walk around in.)

Quote:
2)...is kinect floor stand (http://www.amazon.com/Xbox-360-Kinect-F ... _sim_vg_10) a good combination, if I plan to go kinect route?

I would guess yes. For the PS3 cameras, I use six c-stands I purchased from Cowboy Studios for about $12 each. These are sturdy and stable metal stands that work great but I had to mod my PS3 cameras using a $15 Helicoil to make this combo work. That said, modding the cameras was easy; all you need to do the mod is a bench vise, a power drill, and the aforementioned Helicoil kit which is good for up to twelve cameras. (I made a video of the procedure; I will post it one day.)

Anyway, this Kinect stand costs a lot more than one of the stands I bought for my PS3 Eye cameras, but obviously you will only be buying one stand as opposed to four to six stands.

Quote:
...which require less space?

The Kinect requires less space but it's also limited to a smaller space because it's a single camera system and the IR only works at short range. If all you have to shoot in is a small apartment, then definitely go with the Kinect. If you have a two-car garage space, the PS3 Eye system is probably a better choice.

You also need to keep in mind the hardware requirements of each system. To capture from six cameras takes a lot more computer horsepower and bandwidith than it takes to capture from a single camera.

Quote:
...will kinect good for limited recording?

I'm not sure what you're asking here. As a PS3 user, I can tell you that the system does not track hands or head yet. It does allow you to track with props though. (Seem my sword video for example.)

Quote:
...last but not least, can a one man operate this?

I can operate the PS3 system by myself, so I'm going guess yes for the Kinect version. I operate it manually but there's been discussion for using the Windows built in voice command system to run iPi Recorder. Somebody managed to make it operate Recorder but I don't think anybody has tried this in an actual session yet. (If I find time to set this up, I can try it next week when shoot another session for our short film.)

Quote:
i have 2 core 2.9 intel, is that good enough for a single kinect?

I don't know the specs for the Kinect software but I'll guess that you system will work with it. I think a duo core system might not be powerful enough for the PS3 system at full res and speed, so that may answer your question about which version to go with.

I hope this post helps. Remember, nobody outside of iPi Soft has even used the Kinect system yet, so the answers above are just educated guesses. Also, it's important that you understand that what iPi Soft is releasing next week is a BETA version, so the specs will most likely change as they continue to work towards finishing version 1.0 of the Kinect Software. To illustrate what the means, the PS3 version went through huge changes throughout its BETA phase which lasted a couple of year; in fact the Standard version wasn't even a PS3 Eye camera-based system until just before 1.0 was released. For most beta testers, this meant buying brand new cameras and in some cases brand new computers. Thankfully, the change was all for the better!

BTW, don't let the duration of the Standard version's beta phase scare you. The beta phase for the Kinect version will probably run a lot shorter because it sounds like the program is based at least partially on the mocap system they've already proven. That's my assumption anyway, for whatever that's worth.

Whoops. I said I was going to keep this short didn't I? Nevermind. :)

G.
Author:  fablefox [ Wed Feb 16, 2011 1:22 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 4 cam, kinect, one man recording?
when i said limited recording, i mean recording when some part of the body are hidden, but this hidden part may or may not that important. for example - playing guitar. sitting on a chair. like my previous example, i just want to record my hand and body acting "eating" something. the placement of the foot is not that important.

for the film Beowolf, the motion capture cannot do that - so they have to rebuild everything 'skeleton / wireframe like'. this way the IR can still go though the object and record their motion capture.
Author:  Greenlaw [ Wed Feb 16, 2011 9:10 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 4 cam, kinect, one man recording?
I haven't done a partial body recording but I think it might work in some cases. For example, if you're sitting at a desk, it might capture waist up motions of what it can see and track. The rest of the body will have to be reposed into a sitting after tracking I imagine. If there's too much occlusion, I'm sure tracking will get unpredictable. It might be best to have a chair to sit on but use a prop table made with thin dowels or rods.

As for props, you can use props if they don't occlude too much of the body. There are some good examples of Lightwolf bouncing and throwing a basketball online, and I've done mocap carrying a sword and using the same sword prop as a stand in for a guitar. To sync the guitar playing I listened to a pre-recorded track and mimed the hand motions for the performance. I did have a full-sized guitar on set to practice with but I didn't bother using it for the actual shoot because I was sure it would be problematic.

I considered building a 'wire' prop but decided it wasn't necessary when the sword prop worked out.

Hope this helps.

G.
Author:  TheOwl [ Thu Feb 17, 2011 1:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 4 cam, kinect, one man recording?
I use the logitech cameras for now. Even one person can do it because I do (physical setup, calibration, acting...) And yes you can capture even sitting but it will be hard to nearly impossible for rolling, lying on the floor. If the cameras can see your limbs the better. And good lighting is also important. A construction type portable light will be helpful.

If you have a big space, use stands but if you dont, just tape the cameras on the wall.
Author:  Greenlaw [ Thu Feb 17, 2011 1:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 4 cam, kinect, one man recording?
TheOwl wrote:
And good lighting is also important. A construction type portable light will be helpful.

Yes, good lighting is VERY important. Construction lights however can cast very hard shadows on the body and the background which can compromise tracking results. If you use 'home depot' lights, you will want to diffuse the light somehow. Use a translucent material and be careful to rig it so it won't become a fire hazard.

A better solution is to use soft boxes. Here's an example of a good 'economy' kit:

Continuous Lighting Kit

This is similar to what I use except my kit came with three lights. I arrange them in a left, right and center configuration to even the lighting and reduce cast shadows as much as possible, and because the light is diffuse to begin with the edges are very soft. (Example here: Acting! The shadow on the right is a little harsher than the other two because the light on the left is closer to me, but for the purpose of iPi DMC tracking, this is totally acceptable.)

You can find similar light kits by doing a search on eBay (where I bought my kit about five or six years ago.) Yes, these are more expensive than 'home depot' lights but they are also far more effective and you'll get significantly cleaner motion capture videos.

G.
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