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 Post subject: Custom Lenses
PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2015 7:05 am 

Joined: Tue Jan 20, 2015 3:56 pm
Posts: 26
Hello,

I am interested in upgrading the ps eye's FOV (due to room size restrictions and no, unfortunately I can't change those). Now I found this guys

http://peauproductions.com/store/index. ... x&cPath=28

Has anyone tried with these ? My main concern is about lens distortion and how would this affect iPi.

My goal is to reach over 90 degrees FOV, that should be perfect

Tnx


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 Post subject: Re: Custom Lenses
PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2015 11:38 pm 
iPi Soft

Joined: Thu Apr 09, 2009 6:44 am
Posts: 203
Our software will not work with custom lenses, due to high radial distortion.
You can consider Xbox One Kinect sensors, they have wider angle of view.

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 Post subject: Re: Custom Lenses
PostPosted: Wed Jul 15, 2015 5:25 am 

Joined: Tue Jan 20, 2015 3:56 pm
Posts: 26
Thanks for your answer.

In theory, if a custom lens has the same level of distortion as the PS eye default lens, or less ... would iPi work with it ?

Thing is for my purpose, PS eyes are a must. Kinects ... not so good


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 Post subject: Re: Custom Lenses
PostPosted: Wed Jul 15, 2015 9:20 am 
iPi Soft

Joined: Thu Apr 09, 2009 6:44 am
Posts: 203
The lens increasing FOV must introduce substantial radial distortion. This will not work in current version of our software.

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 Post subject: Re: Custom Lenses
PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2015 5:45 am 

Joined: Tue Jan 20, 2015 3:56 pm
Posts: 26
I understand...

Btw is there a way to use the PS EYE rotated at 90 degrees? My main problem right now is the height of the capture surface and since the cam has a 1.33 aspect ratio and I'm using 8 cams in a circular setup, I'm more interested in catching more height then width.

I saw that iPi recorder has an option of flipping the camera view, but I haven't see one to tilt it 90 degrees or so... can I just use it like this without any additional settings ?

Tnx


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 Post subject: Re: Custom Lenses
PostPosted: Sat Jul 18, 2015 12:27 am 
iPi Soft

Joined: Thu Apr 09, 2009 6:44 am
Posts: 203
We haven't tested such kind of setup, frankly speaking.
The main reason for this is that this substantially decreases capture area, as we need all cameras to see actor in full.
But I think it should work. You can have problems with automatic floor detection, but you can always mark the floor manually.
If you try it, please share your iPiVideo files. This will help us to solve issues if any.

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 Post subject: Re: Custom Lenses
PostPosted: Sat Jul 18, 2015 12:29 pm 

Joined: Mon Aug 03, 2009 1:34 pm
Posts: 2423
Location: Los Angeles
That's an interesting idea. I've never tried that with Mocap Studio but when recording live action actor elements on our small green screen stage for visual fx, I often record with the camera sideways to increase the pixel fidelity of the actor. I guess turning the capture devices on their side could do the same for motion caputre but, as Pas noted, it greatly reduces your capture area. You'll probably add more cameras to make up the lost space, which unfortunately means you'll need more space for the cameras again. Just how large is your space, btw? Would it be possible to place the camera in the corners?

Just curious but why won't Kinect work for you? I use two to three Kinect devices (original Kinect) for most of my capture because of our limited space, and it works great. Years ago I tried using PS Eye cameras in the same space, but it wasn't practical because of the FOV and lighting issues. The system worked better when we moved everything to our garage, but then Kinect compatibility became available and we went back indoors. Multiple Kinect really changed the convenience factor for us because it worked well in a small space, was easier to set up and take down, it and could work under low-light.

The one problem currently is that Kinect for Windows (original) is no longer available, but I think second-hand Kinect for XBox (original) units can still be found fairly inexpensively. These devices can work with a single computer.

But to be honest, Kinect 2/XBox One is probably the way to go for small spaces. The requirements for the new devices, however, are a bit more demanding. I haven't used multiple Kinect 2 with Mocap Studio yet because it means upgrading more of our home studio equipment to USB 3.0 and upgrading the OS on multiple computers (all currently Win 7.) The OS upgrade was the big cost obstacle for us but we're considering switching to Kinect XBox One some time after the free Win 10 upgrade becomes available and proves to be stable.

When the time arrives, we'll post our experiences with multiple Kinect XBox One.

G.

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 Post subject: Re: Custom Lenses
PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2015 3:00 am 

Joined: Tue Jan 20, 2015 3:56 pm
Posts: 26
Ok Pas, so in theory it should work. If I get to try such a thing I will post results for it. Right now it seems we will get a bigger space so the problem should be solved. I estimate we will have a 9 m diameter circle with a 4,5 m diameter circle for the capture space and a height of around 2,3 m. This should be good and I also think it reaches the limits of the system (the 10m limit to be more precise).

Well Green, I want the best motion capture fidelity that I can get out of iPi and frankly I think PS EYEs are better for this. Yes Kinects are better for a small space, less hassle with the clothing and the lighting but it can't match the tracking of the EYEs. Both from videos on the net and the results of some colleagues of mine who went the Kinect way have proven to me that PS EYEs are more accurate, probably because of that 60 fps. I haven't found anything like what Snapz recorded coming from a Kinect setup, quality wise. Also the guys doing Sattelite Reign have chosen to go the PS EYE way. Aaand I'm stubborn also :D, so PS EYE's for me :)


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 Post subject: Re: Custom Lenses
PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2015 8:42 am 

Joined: Mon Aug 03, 2009 1:34 pm
Posts: 2423
Location: Los Angeles
Frankly, with multiple devices, the quality difference isn't as big an issue as it once was. IMO, you should use the system that's best suited for the environment.

To Alisa and I, it really depends on the motion needed and the number of Kinects devices used. We use both PS Eye and Kinect based systems here and, even though we mainly use multi-Kinect for our personal projects, we have also used the multi-Kinect system to create mocap for commercial film and TV productions. The usage was originally meant to be experimental but we wound up using the data for final production.

Generally speaking, data from two Kinects devices is comparable in quality to what you can get with four PS Eyes. This is because you're recording actual depth data as opposed to a 2D image with PS Eye. If you use three Kinect devices, the quality is better--but then the system begins to require more space. (We can just squeeze in 3 kinects in our home studio and still have about 6 x 7 feet of performance space.)

The biggest difference will be in the ability to capture fast motion but 'fast' depends on what you mean by fast motion. For some of the film work Alisa and I did last year, iPi Mocap Studio was mainly used to add motion to digital stunt doubles. In one film, we needed fast motions for actors that were falling from a great height, and Mocap Studio using only two Kinects captured the flailing motions very accurately. (I'll see if I can post some of these shots along with capture video.)

Of course, if what you mean by 'fast motion' is a lot of running and jumping, you're not going to be doing that in a small room anyway. If that was what we needed, then we probably would have used PS Eye at the soundstage where I used to work--but now we're talking a fairly huge space again. (Alisa and I may have both systems at home but the movie studio where I worked last year had the PS Eye system, and even they were considering getting the Kinect setup for its quick setup convenience after they saw the data I was bringing in from home using the dual and triple Kinect system.)

As for the frame rate difference, 60 fps does give you greater fidelty over 30 fps, but you also need to factor in that Kinect is not just 30 fps, it's also recording three dimensional volume which the PS Eye does not. Once you start adding multiple Kinect devices, the difference in fidelty becomes less noticeable. (That said, for really fast motion, yes...higher frame rate is still much better.)

BTW, having a small space does not necessarily limit the size of what you're mocap represents. In the example, mentioned above, the characters in the move were supposed to be falling hundreds of feet. In another film, a giant creature was walking for hundreds of yards, and in yet another film, I used to to make an actor appear to be leaping across a wide chasm (much wider than our living room.) The trick is that you can manipulate the data in all sorts of interesting ways once you get it out of Mocap Studio and into your 3D animation system. (Some of 1KO's early iPi examples illustrated this brilliantly.)

Here is a very old example of a fast motion from about three years ago using two Kinects when Kinect support was still an experimental feature in iPi Desktop Motion Capture version 1. This was meant to be a height test because Mocap Studio was not normally used to record small children, but I was surprised that it captured my five year old daughter's quick motions fairly accurately:

Mocap Test with Small Child

Keep in mind, accuracy was not the intention in this test--at the time, we were only interested to see if the system could capture a child's motion at all, but even with the experimental version and only two Kinect devices, it capture fast motions surprisingly well.

Nowadays, with the improved version 3 software and possibility of up to four Kinect 2 devices, I think the data would be far better that what I was capturing with only two devices three years ago. And in a small room like this, I would say the data is better than PS Eye, especially since you would not be able to get enough Eye cameras set up in this space with proper lighting anyway.

Hope this helps.

G.

P.S., man, I really need to get some new examples posted online--it's been a couple of years since I posted anything new. I'll see if I can get permission to post work from some of the feature films Alisa and I worked in 2013-2014 which used iPi Mocap System. These days my daily work is mostly in 2D cartoon production for Dreamworks Animation but I still use iPi Mocap for my personal 3D productions at home--I'll try to make time to post some of my recent personal stuff too.

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Artist/Partner - Little Green Dog | My Demo Reels (2013,) (2015,) (2017,) and (2019)
Image
Watch a one minute excerpt on Vimeo now!


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