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PostPosted: Sat May 02, 2015 7:59 am 

Joined: Fri Mar 06, 2015 2:57 am
Posts: 19
Thanks for a feedback.
I have some examples about previous problem. It`s really our biggest problem now, so i`d like to share my pain with you:)
I figured out what is the root of the problem. Animation after tracking and refining is really COOL. Trust me, it`s a result what we want. Movements are smooth enough and default character just repeats all movements from source video. Everything is cool except jitter. So without any doubts I just use it. And exactly after this occurs some really big(for us) problems.
Occurs tremor of whole hand, those robotic movements. Animation is going really wrong. Jitter removal removes this jitter, which is natural, but it adds some bigger problems that I outlined earlier.
I`ll share calib file, ipivideo for you. And also i`ll share 2 videos - before jitter removal and after. You`ll see the difference in movements.
P.S. I`ll also share for you doc on your native language for best understanding of problem i have. It will be good if you will read it before watching. Thanks.

Without JR https://www.dropbox.com/s/cd4pbudtbjq5k ... l.avi?dl=0
With JR https://www.dropbox.com/s/war9ul8zo6a5o ... l.avi?dl=0
Calib file https://www.dropbox.com/s/95fr9kr8mlzfl ... l.xml?dl=0
Document https://www.dropbox.com/s/9lt92mbb4grty ... m.txt?dl=0
And source video https://www.dropbox.com/s/ompp38w8i145y ... st.7z?dl=0

I attached 1 file 1 hour later. It`s bvh with tremor after JR(left hand). Also 1 interesting bug in this file - fingers tremble convulsively. It can be improved by re-export take, but anyway...it happens only when i use hand key frames. Thanks again.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/7xhk4jiqja3zz ... 3.bvh?dl=0


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PostPosted: Sat May 02, 2015 12:13 pm 
iPi Soft

Joined: Tue Mar 31, 2009 9:13 pm
Posts: 805
This is a shortcoming of our current algorithms (both jitter removal algorithms and tracking algorithms).
I can confirm that other users reported similar problem.

We will be working to improve the accuracy but I cannot promise a quick solution because this is a very difficult technical problem.

The files you provided are very useful for debugging. We appreciate that. We will be in contact with you regarding this matter. We'll see what we can do.


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PostPosted: Thu May 07, 2015 8:17 am 

Joined: Thu Sep 04, 2014 9:47 am
Posts: 897
Location: Florida USA
...

Looks to me from testing it in studio, the calibration if far from optimal for best tracking, try getting that closer first off.

Your actor should match the performer very closely in every camera for better results.

When performing such stationary actions, setting the cameras closer to the performer will be helpful also, but at least 2.5 from the extent of the camera capture volume area.

A 12' x 12' capture volume will work better for minimal movement tracking.

The one camera is almost right on the performer and it distorts the ability to track well and to set the actor to performer well. Have a center point where all cameras merge is best and start your actions from there, although you can start from anywhere as long as you can refit your actor well.

These are just perceptions I viewed, if you get what you want for what you want, that's all that matters, I just know I couldn't get optimal tracking from what I viewed in your files, especially with the motions I track.

...


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PostPosted: Thu May 07, 2015 2:57 pm 

Joined: Thu Sep 04, 2014 9:47 am
Posts: 897
Location: Florida USA
...

What iPi Basic is easily capable of tracking with only 5 cameras.

Recorded with 5 PS Eye Cams in a specific configuration.

2 PS Moves used for hand motions.

Processing speed @ 1.15 s/f -- .85 f/s with (1) MSI GTX 750 Ti OC

Head/feet/dancer spine/shoulders by video all checked.

YouTube Video: https://youtu.be/agzql8MI2Rs

...


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PostPosted: Sun May 10, 2015 10:45 pm 

Joined: Mon Aug 03, 2009 1:34 pm
Posts: 2423
Location: Los Angeles
Snapz, that looks fantastic! Nice work and thanks for sharing it.

A friend of ours very good dancer and I think we're going to have to get him drop by our studio soon. :)

G.

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PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2015 3:19 am 

Joined: Fri Mar 06, 2015 2:57 am
Posts: 19
Thanks for your reply, Snapz! I`m very new in MoCap(less than 4months). I think you are absolutely right in conclusion that all cams should be directed into a center of room(but room is 21x20 f!!). We need to capture such movements as run, charges. So we decided to distort directions of cams for larger place to capture. Is it a right decision? So i see in your profile, that you are experienced MoCaper and i`m very interesting about better rersults. So how about what i said above?

So please tell me about one more thing! As i said in earlier messages(so sorry, that i saw your reply only today,when you answered to me in another topic(which is a result of my unsolved problem in this topic) - my fault), tracking(exactly ability of Ipi to track motions) seems great for me(please answer me, why tracking is not so good as it can be?). Can bad result of JR be the result of bad tracked motions?

So what you can say about my current situation with MoCap? I`m very excited about what you can say me about my MoCap?


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PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2015 5:11 am 

Joined: Thu Sep 04, 2014 9:47 am
Posts: 897
Location: Florida USA
...

As to room size of 20' x 21' that is a good size, mine is 12' x 21' and I can only get a capture volume of 9' x 12' due to how I wish to potion my cameras for better results.

A minumum distance to cameras should be 2.5m from the edge of your marked capture volume, tape out where cameras can view on the floor, but can be a square or slight rectangle so you know your movement limitations of feet, arms can pertrude this are a bit without issue, but feet need to remain inside those markings or should.

Positioning of cameras, I suppose you are trying 8 cameras? should be in a circle config. with none at exact same height, best to have 4 crossing the actor at an angle and 4 higher around 8' looking down on the actor in a straight on cross config, (meaning 4 lower 1.2m - 1.8m in an X crossing the actor)(4 high in a + directly crossing actor at 90 degrees), those can all be 8' or a bit lower/higher, can be a bit closer in to actor also pointing more downward, this helps in keeping feet planted squarely on the floor for the most part and gives the depth of hip movement needed for good tracking.(forward and back and rotations).

I use only 5 cams and position them how I need them, positioning is upto your preferrence, with my setup, unless the performer actually sits on their feet I can capture almost every movement fairly well.

I also use different camera settings, much lower exposure (60) and much lower gain (12 -16 depending) a trick to camera setting is turn on and off the auto-gain, (after setting how you want), then move the gain slider up until brightens, then back down to where you like it. (Never go back to Home tab or click reset after done for each session of recording, or you will have to re-adjust everything again and run background evaluation again!) Of course, this depends on your particular room factors, yours may vary greatly, but all cameras should have same settings!

Just because you have a larger room, doesn't mean you need to use it all on every session, but if cameras are fixed positions like mine, yes, just leave them larger,

They claim you can have a 20' x 20' capture volume, but I can't try that large, but I do think it will make the performer much smaller and harder to track at that distance.

The cameras make the animation look like its in a larger area anyway once its tracked, if you look at the dancer I captured, she is only in an 8' x 8' area and looks like she is dancing on a stage much larger.

I don't know what you plan to use your animations in, but running for long distances isn't needed for most games, if in a film that may be different, but looping animation in a longer timeline can do wonders, with manual adjustments through it :)

The floor should be a lighter color, gray concrete isnt the best, I use different lighting than recommended, but have it set to work well for me, but just consistent lighting, doesn't need to be bright or directed right on the performer.

Once you figure out getting the calibration very close in all cameras, using better colored clothing, lighting and camera positioning, the program will do the rest pretty well with very little effort and it will fall into place for you.

I can only speak to my experiences, some may not agree with them, but I can show what I achieve, with limited cameras in limited space and I get what I want without a lot of frustration now.

The Move controllers are my biggest issue, as the dancers can sometimes out move the latency of them, but I adjust as needed, smoother moves, even if fast they follow pretty well, it's just the spinning and twisting the dancers do with their hands where it has trouble on accuracy.

Depending on your calibraton cam height used, this will affect your actors actual size in-scene, so your actor may need to be a bit taller or shorter depending or hips will push forward (not good) or feet will be off ground plane to far (to much on toes). With the adjustable bones now, adjusting actor to performer is much better now though, but this doesn't affect ground plane height to calibration to actor height, if you understand that.

Another thing to check first after refitting the actor, is to bring in the export rig you are going to use (i.e. 3ds Max, Blender, Motion Builder, even custom rig/ re-characterized), and overlay it on the actor and make sure it falls correctly on actors bones, it should fall very close to actual iPi rigs bones, if not there is an issue and your exported animation will be badly off.

JR can affect the appearance of your final animation yes, try to keep body parts as low as can get for the motions, less motion, more JR needed sometimes. To much and the animation becomes stiff looking, better to use less JR if possible and more trajectory smoothing. I use 3-5 on TS on export, depending on action and appearance in 3ds Max, my editor of choice, but I have Motion Builder also.

Good Luck with your indeavours, post if you have any other issues and I will try to help, you may not follow all this right now, but as you work more with the program, you will understand more :)

P.S.

On exporting the file to whatever extension, you will have adjustments and clean up, but try to limit that in iPi before exporting if you want, it is easy to bring in the character you want and run the animation and you can see where issues are going to be in advance, as not all characters will match the performers body and motions, pretty much guaranteed, even with advanced planning, but that may help.

...


Last edited by Snapz on Fri May 22, 2015 6:04 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2015 6:01 am 

Joined: Fri Mar 06, 2015 2:57 am
Posts: 19
Thank you very much for reply!
I understood almost everything except "I use 3-5 on TS on export" TS - what is this? Trajectory filter? And what does it means "for export"?


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PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2015 6:24 am 

Joined: Thu Sep 04, 2014 9:47 am
Posts: 897
Location: Florida USA
...

Yes, TS = trajectory smoothing filter, this smooths the animation between each frame better, not the same as JR.

I use 3-5 on export to 3ds max, because I like to, this is personal preferrence.

Another tip.. If the tracking gets lost and it will at times, you should pull the IK of the body part a bit before hitting refit button, may need to do it more than once for better refit, just hitting refit will sometimes not give the required effect. You can also track from a different camera if having a tracking issue from one camera, but try to stay tracking from one camera as much as possible, once get past sticky area, switch back to best tracking camera.(usually the camera used to refit and colorize the actor).

Also, after doing this, track backwards a frame or 2 then stop and retrack forward again, there is an issue where the tracker doesn't respond accurately if just track forward again, it will jump wildly, not good. You can stop tracking with the comma and period keys also!

Best to use low TS when using JR also (0-1 max) I always use 0.

...


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PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2015 9:35 am 

Joined: Fri Mar 06, 2015 2:57 am
Posts: 19
I`ve never had problems with improving lost captures, but thanks.
Now, when we shooting, we just acting in boarded area,so there are no problems with it.
Returning to question about TS and JR. Now i can`t export without applying JR, because it have jitter anyway. Even TS=5 isn`t helping so much. So as i received a reply from developers that they will improve their JR algorithms and it can help me.
Because JR is not about cams configuration but about internal algorithms.
What is the difference between JR and TS? What is nature of JR? Because my only problem now is how to make JR in some soft without JR in IPI exactly for my movements until they improve their(devs) JR algorithms in their near future.


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