The actual color doesn't matter, you just want contrast so the software can clearly distinguish body parts from whatever is behind it (the 'background'). Because PS3 Eye is entirely video based, visual clarity is the key. This is why you don't want to wear clothing that blends with the background or have dark shadows on the performer and BG which may muddy the separation.

That one advantage with dual Kinect: it doesn't use the video data at all for tracking, it uses a 3D depth map so clothing colors are mostly irrelevant. Unfortunately, in this situation, Kinect wouldn't work well because of the large scale requirement for the motion. Kinect is more ideal for recording in a small indoor environment.

Just make sure the body is clearly separate from the background and the arms from the body, and you should be good. The suggested attire is a black short sleeved T-shirt over a long sleeved shirt, and dark pants. Clothing should also be fairly close fitting because loose fitting clothing will obviously confuse the body shape.

Hope this helps.

G.

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Greenlaw
Artist/Partner - Little Green Dog | My Demo Reels (2013,) (2015,) (2017,) and (2019)

Watch a one minute excerpt on Vimeo now!

Thanks for the tips. I'll try with t-shirt over a long sleeved shirt next time. One question tho, if the t-shirt is ie. black, then what optimal color should the long sleeved shirt be?

Another question too, which i think i asked also somewhere else (forgot where tho): is there a way to track wrist angles without the need of PS move controllers?

Also i've seen people use PS move controllers mounted on "helmets" is that still required for head tracking or can i just as well use the "head tracking" option?

Unfortunately the weather in DK is shite right now (raining cats and dogs) so no test recordings for me today :(

It really doesn't matter so long as it contrasts with the background. When I was recording with PS3 Eye cameras, I had a red long sleeved shirt. This was mostly because I recorded on our green screen stage and red was about as opposite as you can get. Here's a old Blog post showing the clothes on the stage. I also have a bright green long sleeve shirt that I could wear almost anywhere else.

FYI, the reason the short sleeve T-Shirt should be black is that it hides any shadows on the torso cast by the arms. However, if you wear a black T-Shirt, obviously, you want to be sure your background isn't black.


The only other option is the Wii Motion Plus, but you have to hold these the same way as PS Move controllers. Between the two, PS Move is far more accurate though. The reason is that wrist rotation is fairly complicated compared to most other joints, which the exception of the head and neck which is even more complicated.

The next best thing is to simply study the RGB stream in Mocap Studio and match what the hands are doing. Obviously it's a bit more work to do it this way.

As for the hat, yes, this works great. Here are a couple of old blog posts about the rig I use:

http://littlegreendog.blogspot.com/2013 ... -head.html

http://littlegreendog.blogspot.com/2013 ... pdate.html

The bike helmet really works well but I switched to the construction helmet from a local hardware store because 1.) the construction helmet is a lot cheaper--about $6 - $9, and 2.) I needed my bike helmet for riding my bike.

The only problem with the construction helmet is that you need the chinstrap to keep it steady, and a proper chinstrap may be hard to find. I found one for my construction helmet online which has a elastic strap. I recommend an elastic strap because a rigid strap can be uncomfortable over the chin.

The construction helmet is also a little tricky to paint because the plastic is so smooth. Krylon makes a spray paint that bonds specifically with plastic. I recommend a flat gray paint if you're using Kinect. If you're using PS3 Eye cameras, you may want to spray it with a paint similar to your hair color. (That last tip is just a guess--I've never used the head rig with PS3 Eye.)

But is it necessary? No, iPi Mocap Studio can calculate head tracking if the video data is clear. But, IMO, the PS Move controller is more accurate and looks more natural for head tracking.

FYI, one user in this forum uses only the removable suspension from the inside of a construction helmet, which seems like it would be lighter and possibly more stable. I haven't been able to find the type he showed in his pics though.

G.

_________________
Greenlaw
Artist/Partner - Little Green Dog | My Demo Reels (2013,) (2015,) (2017,) and (2019)

Watch a one minute excerpt on Vimeo now!

Oh, I almost forgot. You can also modify a pair of weight lifting gloves for PS Move controllers.

I have a pair that I've stitched velcro straps too and they work okay. The advantage is that I can move my fingers freely and not worry about gripping the controller. The problem is that the controllers can bump into the top of your forearm when you rotate your wrist upwards. To compensate, I was going to make foam block risers to give the Move some clearance. Being separated from the hand is not a problem because Mocap Studio only needs the relative rotation of the controllers, not the position.

Another user here disassembled his controllers and attached the bare bones mechanism to his gloves. The mechanism is considerably smaller than the housing so a riser may not be necessary for full mobility. That might actually work well for your situation.

Personally, I'm hesitant about breaking apart my controllers but I might buy a used one to try this out with. One possible downside I see with this is that you may lose the remote control capability of the controllers.

G.

_________________
Greenlaw
Artist/Partner - Little Green Dog | My Demo Reels (2013,) (2015,) (2017,) and (2019)

Watch a one minute excerpt on Vimeo now!

About clothing, i'll make sure to go shop some tight high contrast color stuff from some second hand store (they usally have that kinda stuff for some reason hehe) and make sure to pay attention to the contrasts as you say.

I searched a bit on the internet and found some video of a guy taking apart a PS move controller. It's not like it will get any smaller really (the curcuit board is taking up all the length of the space insided the controller unfortunately). But about head mounted controller i liked your pictures of the construction helmet. Seemed pretty solid.

Now for the hands i may just have to animate stuff myself, since lots of the rock climbing hand poses are gonna require manual tweaking anyway.

While searching for alternatives to PS Move controllers i came accross some company called Perception Neuron, they have some small "neurons" they call them, that they attach to diffent parts of the body to track motion. The price is a bit higher, but from the presentations it looks damn cool to be honest, since it doesn't require cameras. Actually this might be possible to combine with visual tracking as ipisoft does, to allow tracking of head and hands. See link here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvqL2LQjBgQ

Anyway from the looks of this, it might be a full-featured alternative to visual motion capture... anyway, was just something i came accros in my search for alternatives to PS Move controllers.

The shirts can be tricky to find--brightly colored long sleeve T-shirts don't necessarily stay in fashion for long. :)

I'm always thinking ahead and looking out for bargain items that might be useful in production. Bargains can show up when you least expect them and rarely when you really need them.

I got a green and a red long sleeve shirt from an Old Navy store for about $10 each. It was the right color for Mocap studio and other vfx uses, and the perfect cut and size for me. I'm not sure but it may have been an outlet store. Black T-shirts are very easy to find of course--this pro

Craft stores like Michael's and Jo-Ann Fabrics may have the shirts too but they may be sold as seasonal/holiday products. Both stores often have big sales and discount coupons.

And, yes, thrift stores and second-hand shops are great for props and clothing!

G.

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Greenlaw
Artist/Partner - Little Green Dog | My Demo Reels (2013,) (2015,) (2017,) and (2019)

Watch a one minute excerpt on Vimeo now!

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Excellent first attempts! The cams can be a bit closer to the performance area and top one can be closer to the wall, I don't think those synthetic climbing walls have grasping objects that are that large to obstruct much hand visibility.

Your camera spans may be a bit wide and far back, try a little closer to performer, about 12 ft behind and 12 ft to each side one from center point being 3 ft off the wall, the larger your actor is in the camera, the more accuracy you will get in the tracker, but wall climbing is a slow process, so shouldn't really loose much with proper clothing. Yes, I would use deep color long sleeve under a T-shirt in this case and a tighter cut in the T-shirt, even if a size too small for actual wear, or actually a woman's cut works better, it's just a shirt for better mocap tracking, and if you want you can also cut off a lot of the short sleeve, just leave enough for it to wrap down the upper 4 inches is fine to match the minimum slider length on the actor parameters.

Clothing is the main issue I see, of course your clothing choice would need to contrast the actual wall to be recorded, but iPi likes darker saturated clothing colors more, black or very dark blue pants, I like a royal blue T-shirt, but can be another solid color, green or red long sleeve under it, solid dark color shoes, or socks, (shoes shown may work fine), hands should have solid color gloves, black works well and as G stated, you can strap the Moves to the top of your hands also and still get pretty good hand movement capturing for that type of motion, to add a bit more realism easier. I am sure iPi has been looking at other IMU's for the hands, but as of now I don't think they will veer too far off the PS Moves, until an easy stable alternative is found and I would bet that choice isn't the neuron.

Yes, a couple more in between cams would work out well, I know this was just a test with 4 and looks good so far, if you can get away with 4, hell do it with 4 for faster processing and easier setting up.

The cool thing is once you are actually on a climbing wall, you can hang out off the wall, look back and do a lot more than you were testing and have that gravity effect captured pretty well also.

Don't over-think things, the tracker in iPi works well once you get clothed right and as long as you have that good of calibration in the video, your pretty well good to go I think.

Good Job!

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Somehow I lost my sentence. I think I was saying that, unlike the red and green shirts, Black T-shirts probably never go out of style. Something like that anyway. :)

_________________
Greenlaw
Artist/Partner - Little Green Dog | My Demo Reels (2013,) (2015,) (2017,) and (2019)

Watch a one minute excerpt on Vimeo now!

Thanks for the input S and G. Great with the detailed experience from you guys :-).

Today is unfortunately yet another bad weather day, but i'll do some shopping for clothes then instead and also stock up on gaffa tape and try the tabletennisball trick on the mag light and see if i can mount it in a good way.

In the meantime i went over my bills for this hobby project and so far the ipisoft license cost me 321 usd incl vat and the holliday discount. My first attempt was with a kinnect2 which cost me 175usd and i will keep it a bit still, but may end having to sell it again if i dont find any food use of it.
Then there's the 6 ps3 eyes and usb cables. That ended up costing about 200usd. Plus the mini mag was 40usd and then two usb pci controllers for 50 usd. So all in all it ended up close to 800 usd. Anyway.. So i decided to try go without PS move controllers first and see if i can produce something workable with that.

Oh and i just realize i need some kind of tripod or means of mounting the cameras on.. Hmm another thing to think of.. Hope to be able to find some stuff i can use at the climbing gym ;-)

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I understand, there is no rush, get a game plan and work it out is all we all do being independent creators :)

As said, Thrift Shops are very handy for items.

For the camera stands, they can be made of just about anything and cams attached easily, don't necessarily need a camera tri-pod, any solid base stand and a vertical extension will work, as long as easily portable for you and stable throughout the recording session, meaning outside wind can't blow to sway it.

I wouldn't expect many days of good recording outdoor weather for you, as it's coming on January, but good luck in your further recordings, as it looks, that setup will work out pretty well once tweaked a bit.

I use the same type thing on my maglight, but I found a small white plastic paint can cap and taped it to the light, works great, but didn't think of a ping-pong ball :)

By the way, a 1000 usd for this system is common cost when using the Basic version, I have a bit more with upgraded machine components, but compared to the next viable system and the quality of the tracking, iPi has shown to be closely compatible in quality after integral processing at a far less cost for a camera based option, even though it isn't a "Real-time" system.

Real-time Inertial Systems are ok for some things, but so far the output is pretty sketchy, even with the best of them, needing hours to days of manual cleaning to get a short workable animation and the need for a high cost suit for each actor is usually above what small studio creators want to invest in, my opinion, but for some it may be the perfect application.

Oh, btw, there is a company right in Denmark putting out an inertial sensor suit next year 2016, called Salto, but not much info from them yet on a final design or output files or final consumer purchase price, but say they hope to keep a 19 sensor suit to under $800, Google it :).

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